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	<title>Comments on: Alcoholism &amp; Alcoholics Anonymous: Willpower or Disease?</title>
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	<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/</link>
	<description>The best online marketing blog by Joel Gross</description>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-36570</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-36570</guid>
		<description>Tradition or Truth?

The question is:  &quot;Is all tradition truth?&quot; Traditional processes and programs have been having their way for many years with little to no change. For the sake of this space I am specifically speaking of those who are into &quot;self abuse.&quot; COMMONLY CALLED &quot;alcoholic, addict, and all the cutesy names&quot; that exist. Let&#039;s call them what they are in group form...&quot;alibi clubs.&quot;
People exercise poor choice and develop bad habits (maybe in some cases the other way around) and then add the &quot;victim mentality.&quot; Society has made it fashionable to go to treatment especially if you are a &quot;self abuser.&quot; Labels do protect victims.
In realty people are in &quot;pain&quot; for every reason and excuse known to mankind. They are not &quot; in happy&quot; or they would not be disrespecting themselves. They turn to an industry for help who endorses a program of tradition...with little truth. An industry who&#039;s tradition is focused on 28 to 180 days and &quot;you will never be cured.&quot; &quot;Your illness is a lifetime illness.&quot; Your addiction is by your own doing...which by the way, is NOT classified as a disease in the Standard Pathological Textbooks. Addiction is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV). What was once listed as alcoholism is now referred to as alcohol dependence and abuse...under substance related disorders.

ALTERNATIVE:

Noun            1.  A choice between two or more possibilities.
                2.  One of the things to be chosen.

Adjective       1.  Allowing or necessitating a choice.
                2.  Existing outside conventional institutions or systems.

Most of the people that I have had the opportunity to talk with in the &quot;true alternative sense&quot; openly admit that their program &quot;is not&quot; for everyone. Isn&#039;t that truly a CHOICE?
Depending on who&#039;s report you read the Guru (AA) has around a 5 to 7% success rate. (That does show what the courts think of people who are ordered there). Medical Facilities (also depending on who&#039;s numbers you read) has an 18 to 22% success rate...while our tax dollars are looking for genetic reasons (like anyone needs additional excuses to avid responsibility).
There are facilities who claim 100% success and some who proclaim to be the best rated program. (However, when asked who did the rating no response ws issued).
People collectively are still the most powerful force in the world. They have a right to demand the &quot;best results possible&quot; if they are willing to make a commitment to themselves. Is that where the problem lies? In accepting responsibilty we are being truthful and seeking help from traditional means and methods only to be disappointed...then turn to an alternative approach (many which are disguised but are really modified, same old garbage) to get the same results.
There are altrnative programs that qualify &quot;truthfully&quot; as such based on our opening definition. They are succesful because, people who come to them are seeking a common bond...&quot;truth.&quot; No one is &quot;defective&quot; but we are all different and do not belong behind &quot;just door a, b, or c.&quot;
Alternatives give us &quot;choice, optimism, self respect and restore self esteem.&quot;
Life could not have been designed to give people a &quot;label&quot; like one word can describe a person. There are plenty who have no want, need or desire to be happy, they like the initial attention that the victim mentality affords them. When life looses meaning and purpose...people start abusing themselves to turn off the pain. Take the next step for yourself...and restore the respect you deserve and stop buying into the &quot;garbage.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tradition or Truth?</p>
<p>The question is:  &#8220;Is all tradition truth?&#8221; Traditional processes and programs have been having their way for many years with little to no change. For the sake of this space I am specifically speaking of those who are into &#8220;self abuse.&#8221; COMMONLY CALLED &#8220;alcoholic, addict, and all the cutesy names&#8221; that exist. Let&#8217;s call them what they are in group form&#8230;&#8221;alibi clubs.&#8221;<br />
People exercise poor choice and develop bad habits (maybe in some cases the other way around) and then add the &#8220;victim mentality.&#8221; Society has made it fashionable to go to treatment especially if you are a &#8220;self abuser.&#8221; Labels do protect victims.<br />
In realty people are in &#8220;pain&#8221; for every reason and excuse known to mankind. They are not &#8221; in happy&#8221; or they would not be disrespecting themselves. They turn to an industry for help who endorses a program of tradition&#8230;with little truth. An industry who&#8217;s tradition is focused on 28 to 180 days and &#8220;you will never be cured.&#8221; &#8220;Your illness is a lifetime illness.&#8221; Your addiction is by your own doing&#8230;which by the way, is NOT classified as a disease in the Standard Pathological Textbooks. Addiction is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV). What was once listed as alcoholism is now referred to as alcohol dependence and abuse&#8230;under substance related disorders.</p>
<p>ALTERNATIVE:</p>
<p>Noun            1.  A choice between two or more possibilities.<br />
                2.  One of the things to be chosen.</p>
<p>Adjective       1.  Allowing or necessitating a choice.<br />
                2.  Existing outside conventional institutions or systems.</p>
<p>Most of the people that I have had the opportunity to talk with in the &#8220;true alternative sense&#8221; openly admit that their program &#8220;is not&#8221; for everyone. Isn&#8217;t that truly a CHOICE?<br />
Depending on who&#8217;s report you read the Guru (AA) has around a 5 to 7% success rate. (That does show what the courts think of people who are ordered there). Medical Facilities (also depending on who&#8217;s numbers you read) has an 18 to 22% success rate&#8230;while our tax dollars are looking for genetic reasons (like anyone needs additional excuses to avid responsibility).<br />
There are facilities who claim 100% success and some who proclaim to be the best rated program. (However, when asked who did the rating no response ws issued).<br />
People collectively are still the most powerful force in the world. They have a right to demand the &#8220;best results possible&#8221; if they are willing to make a commitment to themselves. Is that where the problem lies? In accepting responsibilty we are being truthful and seeking help from traditional means and methods only to be disappointed&#8230;then turn to an alternative approach (many which are disguised but are really modified, same old garbage) to get the same results.<br />
There are altrnative programs that qualify &#8220;truthfully&#8221; as such based on our opening definition. They are succesful because, people who come to them are seeking a common bond&#8230;&#8221;truth.&#8221; No one is &#8220;defective&#8221; but we are all different and do not belong behind &#8220;just door a, b, or c.&#8221;<br />
Alternatives give us &#8220;choice, optimism, self respect and restore self esteem.&#8221;<br />
Life could not have been designed to give people a &#8220;label&#8221; like one word can describe a person. There are plenty who have no want, need or desire to be happy, they like the initial attention that the victim mentality affords them. When life looses meaning and purpose&#8230;people start abusing themselves to turn off the pain. Take the next step for yourself&#8230;and restore the respect you deserve and stop buying into the &#8220;garbage.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Defoe</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-36165</link>
		<dc:creator>Defoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-36165</guid>
		<description>Hi,

Just to give you my perspective as an atheist non-drinker.  I found AA provided a good jump start (though I also did rehab), and some of the steps do make a lot of sense and I don&#039;t agree that they&#039;re about denying responsibility or &quot;praying&quot;.  An addict will never ever quit unless they acknowledge they have lost control over their substance of choice.  Having control implies they could have the odd pint and not end up addicted again.  In those early days of recovery AA does provide a good place to go where you won&#039;t get judged, and in those early days of recovery addicts know what arseholes they have been so don&#039;t begrudge a little bit of psychological healing.  Now some may want these people to feel bad, but there is a difference between concern about your actions and crushing self flagellation.  The question of the &quot;higher power&quot; needn&#039;t be anything to do with God.  It made sense to me that I could not within myself stop boozing (no I don&#039;t believe the disease theory, but there is an awful lot of rewiring that goes on with chemicals), I had tried and failed.  So my higher power was just other people, physicians and others in the groups.  I see what you&#039;re saying about willpower, and yes at the beginning you make the decisions, but at the end it is not that easy.

So I think there is a lot in AA that can help people.  If you find the right group.  But there is a flip side.  Some members are religious nutters.  Ignore them.  Some preach 90 meetings in 90 days.  Some say AA is the only way.  Rubbish, it is a way though.  The worst thing is that removing alcohol from your life creates a hole.  Now to me that was a great opportunity to fill it with good things, others fill it too much with AA.  In that respects I can see where the cult argument comes from.  I go rarely now, but will still go.  It keeps topped up in my mind what a dick you become when you&#039;re an alcoholic.  

Take what works from AA and ignore what doesn&#039;t, find your own way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>Just to give you my perspective as an atheist non-drinker.  I found AA provided a good jump start (though I also did rehab), and some of the steps do make a lot of sense and I don&#8217;t agree that they&#8217;re about denying responsibility or &#8220;praying&#8221;.  An addict will never ever quit unless they acknowledge they have lost control over their substance of choice.  Having control implies they could have the odd pint and not end up addicted again.  In those early days of recovery AA does provide a good place to go where you won&#8217;t get judged, and in those early days of recovery addicts know what arseholes they have been so don&#8217;t begrudge a little bit of psychological healing.  Now some may want these people to feel bad, but there is a difference between concern about your actions and crushing self flagellation.  The question of the &#8220;higher power&#8221; needn&#8217;t be anything to do with God.  It made sense to me that I could not within myself stop boozing (no I don&#8217;t believe the disease theory, but there is an awful lot of rewiring that goes on with chemicals), I had tried and failed.  So my higher power was just other people, physicians and others in the groups.  I see what you&#8217;re saying about willpower, and yes at the beginning you make the decisions, but at the end it is not that easy.</p>
<p>So I think there is a lot in AA that can help people.  If you find the right group.  But there is a flip side.  Some members are religious nutters.  Ignore them.  Some preach 90 meetings in 90 days.  Some say AA is the only way.  Rubbish, it is a way though.  The worst thing is that removing alcohol from your life creates a hole.  Now to me that was a great opportunity to fill it with good things, others fill it too much with AA.  In that respects I can see where the cult argument comes from.  I go rarely now, but will still go.  It keeps topped up in my mind what a dick you become when you&#8217;re an alcoholic.  </p>
<p>Take what works from AA and ignore what doesn&#8217;t, find your own way.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-35938</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-35938</guid>
		<description>Nevertheless, you are throwing around  the term &quot;coward&quot; unfairly. Your info might be available but those comments were made online, in a space where you are protected from the immediate emotional response such comments might elicit. Don&#039;t use terms like that. They hurt people and they don&#039;t contribute to a constructive approach for debating the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nevertheless, you are throwing around  the term &#8220;coward&#8221; unfairly. Your info might be available but those comments were made online, in a space where you are protected from the immediate emotional response such comments might elicit. Don&#8217;t use terms like that. They hurt people and they don&#8217;t contribute to a constructive approach for debating the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-35881</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-35881</guid>
		<description>Pat,

I do not hide behind an IP address. My name an contact info are freely available on my site. 

Joel Gross</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat,</p>
<p>I do not hide behind an IP address. My name an contact info are freely available on my site. </p>
<p>Joel Gross</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-35878</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-35878</guid>
		<description>It is easy to throw around a strong term like &quot;coward&quot; when one hides behind an IP address. You should not have used such inflammatory terms if your goal was just to make a point. It&#039;s too bad because there is some truth to what you say. Alcoholism is a paradox, and those trying to lable this &quot;condition&quot; are missing the point. I myself was an alcoholic who stopped through therapy and AA. I am not religious, but I do believe there is some thing more in this life than just chance and probabilities. I attend AA meetings because I have made friends in them who have gone through the same ordeal. That is our bond. Not religion.
I believe the &quot;alcoholism as a disease&quot; debate stems from the difficulty of the alcoholic to deal with the guilt society tries to lay on alcoholics for being weak and powerless. If I had not found a way to believe alcoholism was a disease, and therefore not my fault, I would probably still be drinking. When one suffers from such an overbearing addiction such as alcoholism, one is too weak, physically and psychologically to have any willpower to quit drinking. Taking away the weight of the guilt can give one enough strength and hope to finally quit for good.    
So what I&#039;m saying is, after 12 years of sobriety, I don&#039;t care what alcoholism is. But I do care about a fellowship of people that quietly meet together to share on common experiences, and give each other support to become better human beings. 
On the other hand, I also believe AA is NOT enough. As you mentionned, drinking is only part of the problem of an alcoholic. Why one started drinking in the first place and conditions that may have developped during the drinking are reasons why one should consider therapy and possible medication. 
So my answer to your text is: believing alcoholism is a disease worked for me, it saved my life, as it can save the life of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is easy to throw around a strong term like &#8220;coward&#8221; when one hides behind an IP address. You should not have used such inflammatory terms if your goal was just to make a point. It&#8217;s too bad because there is some truth to what you say. Alcoholism is a paradox, and those trying to lable this &#8220;condition&#8221; are missing the point. I myself was an alcoholic who stopped through therapy and AA. I am not religious, but I do believe there is some thing more in this life than just chance and probabilities. I attend AA meetings because I have made friends in them who have gone through the same ordeal. That is our bond. Not religion.<br />
I believe the &#8220;alcoholism as a disease&#8221; debate stems from the difficulty of the alcoholic to deal with the guilt society tries to lay on alcoholics for being weak and powerless. If I had not found a way to believe alcoholism was a disease, and therefore not my fault, I would probably still be drinking. When one suffers from such an overbearing addiction such as alcoholism, one is too weak, physically and psychologically to have any willpower to quit drinking. Taking away the weight of the guilt can give one enough strength and hope to finally quit for good.<br />
So what I&#8217;m saying is, after 12 years of sobriety, I don&#8217;t care what alcoholism is. But I do care about a fellowship of people that quietly meet together to share on common experiences, and give each other support to become better human beings.<br />
On the other hand, I also believe AA is NOT enough. As you mentionned, drinking is only part of the problem of an alcoholic. Why one started drinking in the first place and conditions that may have developped during the drinking are reasons why one should consider therapy and possible medication.<br />
So my answer to your text is: believing alcoholism is a disease worked for me, it saved my life, as it can save the life of others.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-34857</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-34857</guid>
		<description>You gotta luv em.  Thank God they don&#039;t have control over the world or we would be back in the dark ages.  AA is a sub-culture of the inquisition and dark ages.  They always have to take the most radical, dramatic example to prove a point.  Again, the alcohol is blamed for the behavior and acts and not the person.  &quot;It was during their active alcoholism&quot; when they committed the crime.  I remember a story about a drunkin horse thief that got sober, but he was still a horse thief.  Excuses be gone.  AA is full of excuses.  Let&#039;s applaude the rapist now that they&#039;ve turned them self in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You gotta luv em.  Thank God they don&#8217;t have control over the world or we would be back in the dark ages.  AA is a sub-culture of the inquisition and dark ages.  They always have to take the most radical, dramatic example to prove a point.  Again, the alcohol is blamed for the behavior and acts and not the person.  &#8220;It was during their active alcoholism&#8221; when they committed the crime.  I remember a story about a drunkin horse thief that got sober, but he was still a horse thief.  Excuses be gone.  AA is full of excuses.  Let&#8217;s applaude the rapist now that they&#8217;ve turned them self in.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan L.</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-34778</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-34778</guid>
		<description>Hey Brother,
I really enjoyed your article.  I am a member of AA and have three years of soberity.  I don&#039;t agree with alot of what you say, however there are somethings i do agree with.  To start, You say about the fourth step &quot;Except for the most basic moral check: Recognizing ones owns action and taking ownership of them,&quot; is not completely accurate.  When one takes that step they are taking a look at their actions committed during their active alcoholism, and take responsibilty for their actions.  They use the information they get to go and complete their 9th step, which asks us to make amends for the harmed, whatever they may ask of us.  I know of people in the program who made amends for committing crimes such as assualt, and rape, and as a result they have turned themselves in to the authroities to serve prison time for what they have done.  They take responsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brother,<br />
I really enjoyed your article.  I am a member of AA and have three years of soberity.  I don&#8217;t agree with alot of what you say, however there are somethings i do agree with.  To start, You say about the fourth step &#8220;Except for the most basic moral check: Recognizing ones owns action and taking ownership of them,&#8221; is not completely accurate.  When one takes that step they are taking a look at their actions committed during their active alcoholism, and take responsibilty for their actions.  They use the information they get to go and complete their 9th step, which asks us to make amends for the harmed, whatever they may ask of us.  I know of people in the program who made amends for committing crimes such as assualt, and rape, and as a result they have turned themselves in to the authroities to serve prison time for what they have done.  They take responsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-32876</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-32876</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a alcoholic and was president for 2 terms, my vice president was drunk when he shot someone hunting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a alcoholic and was president for 2 terms, my vice president was drunk when he shot someone hunting.</p>
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		<title>By: Alicia</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-32061</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-32061</guid>
		<description>P.S. anyone interested in other articles like this should go to www.orange-papers.org there are many many many more articles on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. anyone interested in other articles like this should go to <a href="http://www.orange-papers.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.orange-papers.org</a> there are many many many more articles on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Alicia</title>
		<link>http://www.blog.joelx.com/alcoholism-alcoholics-anonymous-willpower-or-disease/860/comment-page-1/#comment-32060</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blog.joelx.com/?p=860#comment-32060</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much, it is comforting to know that there are other people who see AA for what it really is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much, it is comforting to know that there are other people who see AA for what it really is.</p>
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